tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post1330859152471596758..comments2024-03-10T01:57:38.017-08:00Comments on NorCal Cazadora: North Dakota Measure 2: Watch your step, folks - it's slippery out thereHolly Heyserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-56894338367659105352010-11-08T21:36:40.401-08:002010-11-08T21:36:40.401-08:00Hmmmm...
I suppose that in principal I do not dis...Hmmmm...<br /><br />I suppose that in principal I do not disagree with Tovar and the others with respect to the potential unpalatability of some high fence or put and take operations. My objection to banning high fence is simply one of liberty, private property, and the libertarian ideals.<br /><br />There are 2450 acres available near my home in Florida. If I was ever to win a gigantic lottery, Albert A Raschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431765456546701021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-88566741102166333432010-11-06T14:05:56.374-07:002010-11-06T14:05:56.374-07:00If you haven't seen it, you'll want to che...If you haven't seen it, you'll want to check out Ted Williams's recent revisiting of the canned hunt issue in Audubon: http://audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite1011.htmlTovar@AMindfulCarnivorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02786679920725797712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-48804261178850075642010-11-04T06:31:27.034-07:002010-11-04T06:31:27.034-07:00I can't think of any hunter who would defend t...I can't think of any hunter who would defend the kind of high-fence hunt that HSUS trots out as its example of high-fence hunting - the video where a piss-poor archer fires arrow into arrow into some exotic animal at short range, trying to kill it. Poorly.<br /><br />But HSUS is the master of portraying the extreme as the norm, and not only do non-hunters buy into it, but some hunters do as Holly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-48548096381099676072010-11-04T03:23:56.933-07:002010-11-04T03:23:56.933-07:00mdmnm: I think you're right. Most people I'...mdmnm: I think you're right. Most people I've heard talk about high-fence or captive-shoot operations find the idea of them unpalatable. Maybe the examples that come to mind for them (and for me) are the extreme "bad apples," but that's also true for hunting in general. I think hunters need to be willing to take ethical stands against at least some forms of captive-shooting Tovar@AMindfulCarnivorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02786679920725797712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-27597722126466949562010-11-03T20:34:58.810-07:002010-11-03T20:34:58.810-07:00Well, a bit late, but I'll weigh in on the oth...Well, a bit late, but I'll weigh in on the other side. I think that the few bad apples in the high fence barrel can spoil matters for all hunters. Albert- google "Kirt Darner" and you'll see an example of such a bad apple. There are plenty of perfectly ethical high fence operations, but to dismiss all attacks on them as mere anti hunting sentiment is a mistake, I think.<br /><brmdmnmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00191436711956580423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-34209597299375504502010-11-03T08:34:57.671-07:002010-11-03T08:34:57.671-07:00Final results are in: Measure 2 loses 43-57 percen...Final results are in: Measure 2 loses 43-57 percent. Bye-bye, HSUS!<br /><br />And Peebs, I understand it being a moral thing, and I don't know that I have a better word. Maybe it's easiest just to say, "It's not for me."<br /><br />And how I envy you, having been able to walk down the Russian River with a gun. Opportunity is way more limited now. And it seems to me that oneHolly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-2990608532615863992010-11-02T22:56:27.193-07:002010-11-02T22:56:27.193-07:00No I would never pass or vote to pass a law that m...No I would never pass or vote to pass a law that might limit someone from having sportingday's experiance or give Janna a chance to learn her skills in a better place than grancentral at Delevan. Things are a lot different now than when I started hunting I use to walk down to the Russan river through town with my shotgun over my sholder I think you can guess what would happen now. I think myPeebshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07500696862042051077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-28030022738606728482010-11-02T18:25:38.150-07:002010-11-02T18:25:38.150-07:00Oh yeah, and in early reporting (eight of 505 prec...Oh yeah, and in early reporting (eight of 505 precincts), Measure 2 is losing - 52 percent no, 46 percent yes. If you're interested in following this, click <a href="http://results.sos.nd.gov/resultsSW.aspx?text=BQ&type=SW&map=CTY" rel="nofollow">here</a> and keep an eye on the second ballot measure.Holly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-74138132437707844552010-11-02T18:22:47.041-07:002010-11-02T18:22:47.041-07:00Sportingdays, I'm so glad you weighed in, beca...Sportingdays, I'm <em>so glad</em> you weighed in, because you make a lot of valid points, including the fact that - like the high-fence ranch I mentioned - planted-bird hunts can provide way more challenge than the kick-em-to-make-em-fly experience if you know how to approach it.<br /><br />And the arguments you mention are <em>precisely</em> why I will defend the presence of such clubs evenHolly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-9167271967906916162010-11-02T17:51:57.014-07:002010-11-02T17:51:57.014-07:00Fascinating how the HSUS picks its battles careful...Fascinating how the HSUS picks its battles carefully and values those incremental victories. I'm not sure that measure would fly even in South Dakota, where pheasant hunting is commercialized to such a degree that the big pheasant lodges have to supplement the wild birds with pen-raised birds to make sure all of their guests get consistently good shooting throughout the season. The "sportingdayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01871216533973980940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-62393391797040513022010-11-02T08:46:15.097-07:002010-11-02T08:46:15.097-07:00I guess today's the day we'll find out if ...I guess today's the day we'll find out if North Dakotans fall for it.<br /><br />I understand where the hunters who oppose high-fence hunting are coming from - they have a deep sense of what's fair in hunting, and they don't see this as fair.<br /><br />But I fear they're a bit myopic. Plenty of people don't see rifles as fair. Or compound bows. Or anything more than our Holly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-64304401837291145462010-11-02T06:34:42.883-07:002010-11-02T06:34:42.883-07:00Holly,
I have no problem with "high-fence&qu...Holly,<br /><br />I have no problem with "high-fence" hunting whatsoever. I may not choose to hunt a certain way, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to prevent someone else from hunting that way.<br /><br />And I think we're missing a bigger point here. What these types of legislation are really about is banning all types of hunting. On the surface, and to the general SimplyOutdoorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14074585345161430068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-65963256006785833872010-11-01T20:46:54.620-07:002010-11-01T20:46:54.620-07:00Josh: I'm still not seeing it. Are you basing ...Josh: I'm still not seeing it. Are you basing this on science?<br /><br />Peebs: I do declare, this may be the first time I've seen you on a soapbox! Now here's my question for you: Would you make any of those things illegal? (And thanks for adding fishing - fits the same mold, for sure.)Holly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-60134264806859679932010-11-01T18:23:20.343-07:002010-11-01T18:23:20.343-07:00Having never hunted planted birds I accepted an of...Having never hunted planted birds I accepted an offer from a club hunter that hunted Delevan with me, he was a member of a private bird club and we went out to HUNT... It wasn't hunting at all, the first bird I "destroyed" I was use to hitting birds that did anything other than fly straight and he was just a mass of feathers. My fourth bird I had to kick out of the grass and that Peebshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07500696862042051077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-77348884335610899952010-11-01T18:00:07.716-07:002010-11-01T18:00:07.716-07:00Holly, the differences to which I was alluding wer...Holly, the differences to which I was alluding were to pain, anticipation, sense of place, size, etc. - those things that cause us pause when we consider high-fence operations.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05409883521642115031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-82578794837301287902010-11-01T17:03:35.234-07:002010-11-01T17:03:35.234-07:00Oh yeah, I've read about that issue, and I agr...Oh yeah, I've read about that issue, and I agree it's a problem. In California, landowners can get permission to sell extra tags for clients to hunt animals on their land, but I don't think they're allowed to fence them in.<br /><br />The ranch here that I've been writing about has wild deer on it, but they can clear the fences no problem.Holly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-89722613652956964612010-11-01T16:46:38.036-07:002010-11-01T16:46:38.036-07:00Good post, Holly.
Here in Vermont, we have a curr...Good post, Holly.<br /><br />Here in Vermont, we have a current high-fence debate. Whatever folks may feel about such shooting/hunting operations (I'm not keen on them myself), the main issue at stake in our local case is "public trust." The landowner has enclosed not just imported animals (elk), but also local wild animals (deer and moose). He is profiting from fees paid by Tovar@AMindfulCarnivorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02786679920725797712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-46926517245953734662010-11-01T11:43:18.905-07:002010-11-01T11:43:18.905-07:00The only meaningful difference I see between birds...The only meaningful difference I see between birds and mammals in the context of this argument is that mammals are more likely to be considered trophies. I think that plays significantly into the mindset of hunters because so many of us are disgusted by the hunter who would rather buy an easy trophy than earn a hard one. This, of course, is one of the huge problems I have with things like MeasureHolly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-47748969627227921002010-11-01T09:28:27.865-07:002010-11-01T09:28:27.865-07:00That's an interesting take, and also well-put....That's an interesting take, and also well-put.<br /><br />And though I mostly agree with your comparison between birds and mammals, I don't completely agree. Birds are different from mammals - very, very different. In fact, it would make more biological sense to say that we shouldn't hunt any mammals because we don't hunt humans, than to say we shouldn't hunt birds because Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05409883521642115031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-40418675858218396412010-11-01T08:40:42.680-07:002010-11-01T08:40:42.680-07:00Janna, welcome to my world - once I started and fo...Janna, welcome to my world - once I started and found out what it was <em>really</em> about, I started getting really pissed off about the stereotypes and outright lies.<br /><br />As for how you hunt, my recommendation would be to hunt every opportunity you get right now, planted-bird or not, because your brain is hungry for practice, and if you feed it, you'll learn a lot. But if you reallyHolly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-55522264797468270432010-11-01T08:33:31.325-07:002010-11-01T08:33:31.325-07:00Matt,
Show me proof, not hearsay, not rumors, not...Matt,<br /><br />Show me proof, not hearsay, not rumors, not so and so said that he heard from someone, show me PROOF that hunting behind a high fence, or any fence for that matter constitutes or indicates shooting a pen raised animal.<br /><br />I get sick and tired of that tired refrain. I forget which post it was, but I mentioned that 99% of the people pissing and moaning about high-fences areAlbert A Raschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431765456546701021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-75759351703384192622010-11-01T08:05:55.874-07:002010-11-01T08:05:55.874-07:00Holly - I find it interesting that ND has this on ...Holly - I find it interesting that ND has this on their ballot. Does the state of ND really offer a lot of high fence hunting for big game? You got me interested so I had to look up their state regulations for hunting and was surprised to see Big Horn and Elk tags available. For some reason, I always pictured ND as flat cold farm land. I guess Elk were prairie animals at one point in time.<br /Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08613569767758270754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-51008721765286044502010-11-01T07:11:46.385-07:002010-11-01T07:11:46.385-07:00This is a tough one. I agree with hunter's ri...This is a tough one. I agree with hunter's rights to a rediculous degree, but I'm not sure I agree with protecting the rights to hunt pen raised animals. I've hunted my whole life and have always prided myself on the fact that I've never accepted an invitation to hunt pheasant on any of the many farms in the area. I just really can't see how someone can call it hunting whenMattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-43799968843551676012010-11-01T06:31:30.376-07:002010-11-01T06:31:30.376-07:00Holly, I know this is going to disappoint you, but...Holly, I know this is going to disappoint you, but I agree with you down the line. We raise all kinds of animals for food, in all kinds of ways, and it is our obligation to treat them decently while they're alive and do our best to give them a humane death. Everything else is, as you point out, window dressing.<br /><br />If we see it the same way, it must be true.Tamar@StarvingofftheLandhttp://www.starvingofftheland.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478505267875308908.post-47498723881338023662010-11-01T06:30:39.805-07:002010-11-01T06:30:39.805-07:00I have no problem with people who want to maintain...I have no problem with people who want to maintain and hunt on high-fence ranches. It's not for me, but it's their choice. It's absolutely no different than going to a farm pen and selecting which cow you want to butcher this fall. The animals have more freedom over the course of their lives and if you're going to eat meat, that should be the goal for livestock. <br /><br />I Mike Dwyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00741136015944133141noreply@blogger.com